Frans Woelders (Danske Bank): ‘GenAI is Going to Change Banking’
After a ‘lifetime’ at ABN AMRO, a few years ago Frans Woelders decided to change course. He decided on an international career at Royal Bank of Scotland in Edinburgh. But shortly after he and his family settled into the Scottish capital, he received a call from an old acquaintance. Whether he did not feel like moving to Copenhagen? To the renowned Danske Bank - a Danish institution that needed a clean-up after an extensive money laundering scandal. In his brand-new office in Copenhagen, Woelders tells Geert van den Goor, managing partner of consultancy firm Valcon, about his adventures after ABN AMRO. ‘It has been quite a journey.’
It is Friday, late afternoon. It is quiet in Danske Bank's new office in the heart of Copenhagen. ‘Most colleagues have already gone home’, says Woelders, COO of Danske. ‘There are no Friday afternoon drinks here. Family comes first. Everyone leaves on time. Even my colleagues from the executive board.’ Danske's office is brand new. And it fits Woelders like a glove, he says: ‘This is a very open place, a place that invites collaboration. We come from a very old, classical building, where you could really get lost. It always reminded me a bit of Fawlty Towers. Wooden floors, wooden paneling - the boardroom was called the cigar box. We were more or less locked in there. Here everything is much more open. We are much closer to the people. I feel at home here. I am convinced that a work environment, an office, affects the culture and the working atmosphere. In the old building, I always wore a suit. Now I usually dress more casually, and the suit is the exception. That suits me much better.’
You worked at Royal Bank of Scotland for a relatively short time after leaving ABN AMRO. Why did you choose to make the move to Danske Bank at the time?
‘After ABN AMRO, I had the opportunity to become Chief Digital Officer at RBS. It was a great job. I was enjoying myself. But then I got a call from Chris Vogelzang, at the time the Dutch CEO of Danske Bank. Chris and I knew each other from ABN AMRO days. I see him not only as a friend but also as one of the best leaders I have ever worked with. Chris was looking for a COO for Danske and reached out to me. In all honesty, I did need to think about his request for a while. My family and I had just settled in Edinburgh. And then suddenly came this call for a different adventure - in Copenhagen. What appealed to me about Danske was that I would immediately join the executive board, whereas at RBS the timing for that was not concrete yet. So, after careful consideration and to the lesser delight of colleagues at RBS, I made the move to Danske shortly after starting in Scotland.’
The timing was quite salient. Danske Bank just emerged from a tumultuous period, marked by a major money laundering scandal: criminal money amounting to billions were laundered through branches in Estonia. How did you assess that at the time?
‘It was indeed a turbulent time. But at the same time, that was the appeal of Chris's request. We had to accomplish a turnaround together. And I believe that at Danske Bank, now four years later, we have succeeded well. I looked at the stock price this morning: Danske is now trading at 212 kroner. When I started, it was 70 kroner. This is not all important, but it certainly indicates something. It has been quite a journey.’
What assignment did you start with at Danske Bank at the time?
‘My primary task was to introduce a new, agile way of working here. That is certainly what occupied me in the first year. 4,500 people were given new roles, both in business and IT. IT was a standalone department here. I believe in collaboration. In my previous roles, I have always been in the mix of business, technology, and operations.
They were looking specifically for someone who could build connection with business from all departments. I too firmly believe that is the way to do it. Everyone in my team is also in a business team. I want everything to be fully integrated with the business.’
That is certainly an interesting task, of course, but even in your early days, Danske made headlines in a not-so-positive way...
‘I just arrived here when we discovered a huge problem with our debtor management. It was a major issue which turned out to have extended over a period of 20 years. We uncovered that we had overcharged our customers, partly due to data and process errors. The scandal had some parallels with the Dutch childcare benefits affair, where people were wrongly plunged into huge debt. Danske suddenly became very negative news. And it kept getting bigger and bigger. Dealing with that affair took up a tremendous amount of my time.
We ultimately compensated everyone generously. That is the only thing you can do: admit you made a mistake and correct it generously. Now, three and a half years later, I am still dealing with the last remnants, but fortunately, we managed to largely solve the problem. I was thinking recently: I should at some stage have reached out to the Dutch government. Especially as my team now has such extensive experience on this and because there are so many parallels with the childcare benefits affair - the Netherlands could benefit from this. We have the model fully developed here: compensate, pay out, check and supervise. Well, maybe it's not too late...’
I can also imagine that over the past few years, you have sometimes thought: what on earth have I gotten myself into?
‘Absolutely. I was brought in to devise new, exciting things. To implement agile methods and expand the business. That is what I love doing most. But I also enjoy getting my hands dirty with something complex, rolling up my sleeves and getting to work. As COO you are to an extent also a bit of a vacuum cleaner for the company. Any problems? Call the COO. He will solve it. That is what happened here too. And ultimately, that is also the fun part of this role. Now I can sit here, relatively relaxed again because I know that we managed to put the problem behind us.’
Another problem for you was the quick departure of Chris Vogelzang, the CEO who personally won you over to Copenhagen...
‘Yes, that was just after a year. And that was quite a blow. At that stage I had another good chat with my wife at the kitchen table. What should we do now, we asked each other. We weighed up everything up and quickly concluded that we wanted to stay: we were having a great time in Denmark, life in Copenhagen is very good, and I had great colleagues at Danske. So why would we leave, was our conclusion.’
Did the Danish CEO, Carsten Rasch Egeriis, who took over in 2021, also become 'your' CEO?
‘Absolutely. He became everyone's CEO, and certainly mine too. Of course, when a new CEO arrives, you need to see if there is a connection. It’s one of those things you cannot force. But if there was no connection, I would not have been here three years later, of course. Life is too short to work in complicated relationships. The collaboration is excellent.’
What is it like to work in Denmark as a Dutchman? How did you experience the culture during your initial period?
‘As a foreigner, what I came to realize is that there is a company culture and a national culture. When you move to another country, you first need to figure out: is this 'the country's way' or 'the company's way'? You can influence a company’s culture, at least from the executive board. But you will have to accept the national character. It does take time to figure out what is in the national character and what is in the company character. It is necessary to adapt to the national culture you are operating in. Otherwise, it will be a short and simple existence: people are not going to adapt to you. You need to keep that in mind if you want to build consensus. It is not about whether I am right; it is about creating consensus. It is not about how I do things; it is about how they do things. Denmark is a fantastic country. It is no coincidence that it ranks higher than the Netherlands on the World Happiness Index. The weather is not great, especially in winter, but otherwise, everything here is fantastic. Everything is clean and safe. You do not need to lock your door here; six-year-olds travel alone on the metro. The flip side is that it can sometimes be a bit dull.’
And what about the difference between Dutch and Danish people?
‘They have more similarities than differences. What I have noticed after more than six years abroad is that almost all cultures in the world are focused on making others feel comfortable. Dutch people are not – they are mainly interested in expressing their opinion. I learned to adopt a different approach as a leader, especially in the United Kingdom. Just be nice. That is not necessarily a unique selling point for the average Dutch person. My work abroad has given me a different perspective. I think I have grown because of it. Another thing that stands out in Denmark is the work-life balance, and it applies to executives too. I now have dinner at home with my family in the evenings. That is completely normal here. It most definitely was different at ABN AMRO.’
Were you as Dutchman welcomed with open arms?
‘In the company, certainly. What is pleasant at Danske Bank is that there is little politics. We truly operate as a team in the boardroom. We help and support each other through thick and thin. These are not empty words; we genuinely help each other. In society, the onboarding process was a little more difficult. Danes can be somewhat reserved. In the Netherlands, we observe with interest how the Danes handle migration. There is a lot to be said for it. The flip side is that due to this reserve, as a foreigner, you do not necessarily immediately feel welcome. It was different in the UK. There, we felt welcome from day one. In Edinburgh, I had British friends. Here in Copenhagen, I have Dutch friends. There is a vibrant Dutch community. It is nice. It is very easy to connect with each other. If you are a Dutch person at a Danish company, you are immediately embraced.’
How would you describe yourself as a leader? And what development have you gone through as a leader?
‘The first word that comes to mind when describing myself as a leader is 'team player'. I enjoy building inclusive teams and working together with them. I prefer to do decision-making as a team, just as the important conversations. Furthermore, I am results-oriented. I like to not only devise strategy but also execute it. We are not here to only do long-term strategy; we are here to get things done now too. I like to get all those thousands of people along, to do major change trajectories, to literally and figuratively get on the stage and to enthuse people. I certainly do not prefer an ivory tower. Fortunately, our modern office set-up here also supports that.’
What are your ambitions for the coming years?
‘We presented our new strategy last June. The reception by investors, the media and colleagues was excellent. We are currently working on executing it. It is a growth strategy with a significant digital and technological component. We are scaling up our IT investments by more than 30 percent. What we knew already at the presentation of the strategy is the importance of generative artificial intelligence, which is becoming bigger and bigger. Every week, I find myself thinking there are even more possibilities than I could have thought last week. A few months ago, I said that GenAI would be as big as the internet. Now I think: GenAI will be even bigger and more impactful than the internet. It will be the big game-changer. GenAI is going to change the world and certainly banking. Danske Bank wants to be at the lead in this. We are investing massively, and it is truly my goal to get everyone here on board and to embrace it. The coming months and years will be focused on achieving this goal. It is going to be an exciting time. Afterwards, we will return to the Netherlands.’
This interview was published in Management Scope 06 2024.
This article was last changed on 25-06-2024