Farewell Interview Martin van den Brink and Peter Wennink: ‘ASML Remains a Very Dutch Company’

Peter Wennink’s boardroom is filling up with farewell wishes, bottles of wine, cards, letters, gifts. ‘It is heartwarming.’ Meanwhile, colleague Van den Brink gazes into the photographer’s lens. The technical man doubts the brand and wants to show us a real lens: the first that the German company Zeiss made for ASML many years ago. A cross-section of the lens is prominently displayed in Van den Brink’s trophy cabinet in the boardroom. Wennink’s office across the passage also has a cabinet full of photos and awards. When asked which award is most important to him, Wennink picks up a somewhat ludicrous plastic object. ‘This one, maybe. From the chairman of a major customer. We received it because we delivered best value. Is that not great? Best value! But you know what is funny? We received it for a machine that was not fully functioning yet. And still, best value. I think that says a lot.’

We could perhaps get to that machine later, but let us first discuss the both of you and the dynamics between you. In the photo, you stand shoulder to shoulder. Is that characteristic of your collaboration?
Van den Brink (sternly and with a straight face): ‘That was at the explicit instruction of the photographer!’
Wennink (laughs): ‘This immediately illustrates the sense of humor we share. Pulling things into perspective when everyone gets too serious. Martin is fantastic at that.’

How would you further characterize Martin van den Brink?
Wennink: ‘Martin is one of the most passionate and driven individuals I know. Someone with very clear core values. Everything with Martin must be genuine, has to matter. He is highly structured. And he is always relentless, as the English say it so well, always relentlessly seeking how things should be. He will always talk to several people before coming to a decision, but ultimately, he makes the call. Also based on intuition. But the core of his personality revolves around his sense of values, a sense of values that I very much share with him.’

And conversely, how would you describe Peter Wennink?
Van den Brink: ‘When Peter arrived here from Deloitte, he had a history of adding and subtracting, of creating excellent corporate reports. Over time, however, it became apparent that Peter had far more insight into the industry than the average person from a financial department. He had a broad perspective. His greatest strength is bringing people together. And he is incredibly loyal. Peter gives colleagues all the space they need to do what they consider best for the company. Furthermore, Peter never panics. Never. He has never been phased by any problem. When I went to him to tell him that our machines just would not work, that it was no reason for Peter to panic. It was simply the starting point of a good conversation.’
Wennink: ‘The reason I can react so relaxed is because I trust Martin. I know it never is about self-interest with him. Martin is an icon in this industry, but he absolutely does not see himself as bigger than anyone else. And he is incredibly solution oriented. Martin is very humble.’
Van den Brink: ‘Those first 15 years on the board laid the foundation for our trust. We dealt with very significant issues back then, both in terms of content and organization. But we always felt trust in each other. We valued each other’s input and insights. Peter is equally averse to self-interest. Not a single opportunity passes without him telling the story about being born a dime never to become a quarter.’
Wennink (stands up, walks to his desk and picks up two coins): ‘Here they are. A dime and a quarter! On my desk!’
Van den Brink: ‘That is what I mean. That has bothered him for longer than he admits. That story of the dime that could never become a quarter has only recently begun to fade away.’
Wennink: ‘I was raised with a strong sense of responsibility. That sense of responsibility is a common thread in my life. I have also always felt extremely responsible within this company. Not only towards the employees, but also towards our customers, suppliers, shareholders, and society.’
Van den Brink: ‘I think on that point we are more alike than many people think. Things should never come at the expense of stakeholders, as we call them nowadays. The customer above all. We have had customers with very critical issues. It was seriously stressful at times. We promised customers all kinds of things and then could not deliver it. I remember being called by the boss of a very important customer from Taiwan. They had a major technical problem with our equipment. Peter and I looked at each other. ‘This is really a big problem. How do we solve this?’ We almost simultaneously said, ‘We should go there.’ We immediately said, ‘We are coming.’ Until someone said, ‘Where on earth are you going? You cannot leave. We are expecting a visit from a prime minister and a chancellor!’ Neither of us thought about that for a moment.’
Wennink: ‘The communications department was, obviously, completely panicked: ‘This cannot be happening?’ We replied, ‘Why not? There is a plane, is there not? Then it is possible, right?’ The customer’s interest always comes first. It was not a discussion. And, our guests were well received by the then chairman of our supervisory board, Arthur van der Poel.’
Van den Brink: ‘If such a request were to come again today, I would do exactly the same.’

May I go back in time for a moment? You have been co-presidents of ASML for eleven years. That is quite an unusual governance model. Why was this form chosen in the first place?
Wennink: ‘When our former CEO left, I was asked if I wanted to become CEO. At the time, I personally felt that I was not suitable for it. I am not a physicist. And then I would have to deal with all those people...’
Van den Brink: ‘He had been with us for more than ten years by then. That story of the dime again. It took Peter a long time to gain self-confidence.’
Wennink: ‘... Initially, they wanted to wait another two years. And if I would not do it, they would bring in someone from outside.’
Van den Brink: ‘At the time, we both often talked about the succession issue. Neither of us pushed ourselves forward as CEO. We did not feel the need to. In my case, it also had to do with pride. If they want me to come and help, they should just ask me. But what we did agree on was that we preferred not to have someone from outside.’
Wennink: ‘Someone from outside brings with him or her all kinds of issues. Think of a company as a large forest. When you bring in an outsider, it is like introducing a big dog that wants to mark its territory on every tree. But we knew: not all those trees need water. Hence, I proposed to the supervisory board chairman Arthur van der Poel: why not have two CEO’s?’
Van den Brink: ‘The supervisory board asked us to make a proposal on how we envisioned that. Who would play the primary role? And who the secondary?’
Wennink: ‘That was a concern of the supervisory board at the time. But for us, there were no issues. No primary and no secondary role. We wanted two primary roles. Product and technology with Martin, the rest with me – that was the plan. And so it went. We soon became a kind of duo: Peter and Martin. Every decision was made with the question: what do Peter and Martin think?’
Van den Brink: ‘But we are not Siamese twins. I always disliked that term. We are not the same. We gave each other space. We always had our own voice, even when sitting with others. It is not like I coordinated everything with Peter beforehand. On the contrary. In meetings, we can react very spontaneously. Like, what is it he is saying now?’
Wennink (stands up, rummages through a stack of papers on his desk): ‘Look at this, this cartoon from a few years back in the local newspaper Eindhovens Dagblad really says it all. It is the best drawing that has been made of us together. You see Martin and me together on a sailboat. Martin is standing at the helm. He is determining the course with all sorts of equipment. And I am behind the wheel. I am sailing the course Martin charts. The wind filling the sails. That is exactly how it was! A splendid drawing. I really should frame it.’

Were there any topics that you had blazing arguments about?
Van den Brink: ‘I cannot recall any.’
Wennink: ‘I cannot recall any either. We had disagreements over organizational matters or someone’s performance, but then we just had a conversation on it.’
Van den Brink: ‘What does happen frequently is that emotions run high. Both of us can be quite emotional. What helps is that I tend to be emotional about different things than Peter. Peter can get worked up like an alarm clock if something inaccurate is said in politics. Those emotions just need some space. I shrug it off. My alarm goes off when something is not right technically.’
Wennink: ‘Martin de-escalates. He approaches everything very calmly.’

Now you, Mr. Van den Brink, especially spent the money within this concern…
Van den Brink (quasi-indignant): ‘Why would you say I spent all the money?’
Wennink (quasi-sternly): ‘Just admit it already, Martin.’

Looking at your EUV machine, that device cost 15 billion euros. Were there conflicts about that?
Van den Brink: ‘If there were any conflicts, they were not between Peter and me. We always agreed, even with the risky acquisition of the American laser manufacturer Cymer back then. I felt we had to do it to solve the issues with the new EUV light source. But the rest of the team did not immediately support it. I went to Peter and said, ‘We will not make it if we do not do this.’’
Wennink: ‘I remember very well Martin standing here by this window, firmly convinced that the acquisition was the optimal decision for ASML. Then I said, ‘Let us do it.’ For me, it was settled.’

When do you feel you as a team was at your best?
Wennink: ‘I believe it was during our discussions with our German partner, Zeiss, the lens manufacturer. Our relationship with that company has been... sensitive. With its ups and downs, but certainly with mutual respect. Ultimately, we acquired a 25 percent stake in Carl Zeiss SMT. During that period, Martin and I were truly a close-knit team. I think that was when we were at our best.’
Van den Brink: ‘Arranging that stake was so complicated. At one point, we went cycling in the dunes with the Germans before negotiating. I think that ultimately contributed to a willingness to compromise.’
Wennink: ‘It was also about psychology. Because the psychology with our German friends is quite unique. They called us ‘the Vikings,’ and they were rather structured and more cautious. How do you bring that together? I think we managed that very well. We both played our roles. One pushing, the other pulling. And ultimately, we ended up exactly where we wanted to be.’
Van den Brink: ‘During negotiations, I occasionally allowed tensions to rise to the point where doors were slammed and individuals stormed off. Peter would then use that dynamic to move a step further. We always managed to resolve everything.’

You have witnessed this company evolve from an embryo into a global corporation. How has that affected you as a leader?
Wennink: ‘For me, not much has changed. I still feel the same sense of responsibility. Of course, the company has grown, with larger stakes involved. But my approach remains consistent with how I operated 25 years ago. It still revolves around prioritizing the customer, our staff, and our suppliers. That does not change. If you get that wrong, you have a problem. That remains true whether it is a large or small company.’

You said it yourself: there are larger stakes. Everything you do now could cause an earthquake’.
Wennink: ‘Or if we do not do it. That is true, but significant decisions are never made in isolation. They are made in collaboration with our suppliers, technology partners, and customers. It is not like we sit outside on a Sunday afternoon with a nice glass of Bordeaux, deciding what we want to do next. No, it is a continuous process of interaction and connection with our stakeholders.’
Van den Brink: ‘Two images vividly illustrate our current status. The picture of Mark Rutte alongside Chinese President Xi Jinping would never have happened without ASML.  So too the photo of Mark Rutte in Joe Biden’s office would never have existed without ASML. We grew from a completely inconceivable company to a global player.’
Wennink: ‘But it makes little difference to our business operations. Even as I sat at the table with Biden, my thoughts were solely on ASML’s interests. We must keep our stakeholders satisfied. That is where our focus lies.’

The enormous growth also means that you suddenly lead 15,000 people in R&D, a department with a billion-dollar budget. How do you manage that?
Van den Brink: ‘Well, neither do I know... much has changed in the sector. Philips developed its first television and the first CD player with just five people. When I started in the early days of ASML, we focused on system engineering, describing the entire system by specifying subsystems and their interface to the overall system. This approach allowed us to scale the team by having each member work on a subsystem, while a small group of system engineers optimized the whole.’
Wennink: ‘Our core competence nowadays is complex system integration. That is what we do. Organizing that effectively can be quite challenging. Some people say we excel at managing the entire ecosystem around us. But believe me, our wonderful ecosystem is simply the result of our early days of poverty and neglect.’
Van den Brink: ‘Exactly! I wish it could be articulated somewhat more intellectually in Management Scope, but it is the truth!’
Wennink: ‘There was only a dream. There was no money. We lacked competencies. We were somewhat forgotten. Philips viewed us as the dog in the backyard to occasionally throw a bone at. Another item that needed funding. So, what were our options? The only recourse was to seek out partners who could assist us in achieving our dream.’
Van den Brink: ‘That is how it became a scalable concept. By accident.’
Wennink: ‘That is how it happened. There was no brilliant vision. It was just pure and simple luck. Poverty and neglect. Typically, that is not a blueprint for great success. But in this case, it turned out well.’
Van den Brink: ‘We grew with our customers. Our major clients today were small players back in 1987. You grow with your customers. You are as bad as a customer tolerates you to be. If you associate with the wrong customers, then it becomes a tough story.’
Wennink (pointing to the trophy cabinet): ‘Best in value - for a machine that does not work! These customers are so important for what we ultimately achieved. Absolutely crucial.’

Do you feel like ASML receives enough recognition in the Netherlands for what it stands for?
Wennink (laughs): ‘I think so, now, yes.’
Van den Brink: ‘Yes, nowadays.’
Wennink (sighs): ‘I have been advocating publicly for our story and the importance of a good business climate since 2016. For eight years!’

That is a long time...
Wennink: ‘Yes, it is not without reason that Martin says: Peter comes to a point when he goes off like an alarm. So, that happened recently. The politicians seem to think that manna will continue to fall from the sky. That irritates me. Then I cannot hold back anymore, and that is when I say: we in the Netherlands are fat, dumb, and happy. I mean it. We are complacent, thinking that everything will work itself out. Meanwhile, you see Shell disappearing, you see Unilever disappearing, Boskalis... And I know even more companies that play with the idea. And what will happen then? The Dutch branch will have to ask the headquarters in Paris or Austin if they can spend 50,000 euros. And what will they say? Where the hell is Eindhoven!? That is how it is going to be!’

You still feel hot under the collar about this...
Wennink: ‘It bothers me tremendously! I see it happening before my eyes. And if you feel even somewhat responsible for society, like I do, then you want to at least preserve what we have, right? If you are not addressing this as a politician, then what are you doing? They do not have this problem in Korea, you know. So, occasionally, I throw a stone into the pond. And then everyone wakes up for a moment, and suddenly something needs to happen.’ (Cynically:) ‘Well, hallelujah!’ (Collects himself) ‘All right then, alarm off.’

May I go back to the moment when the Dutch government essentially gave away your entire negotiating position in the export discussion? How was the discussion about exporting to China received in the boardroom?
Van den Brink (hesitantly): ‘I think we are okay-ish with the conditions imposed on us. Of course, one can openly question whether the Dutch government has effectively leveraged its position. There is a lot to be said about that, but perhaps it is better not to... In the long run, I do dare say that an export freeze to China is not going to help us. The Chinese will not patiently sit in the waiting room. They will take action. You see, we are just a company. We have no choice but to ensure we comply with the various governments.’
Wennink: ‘We have to go along with it. Our license to operate is to deliver to all our customers whatever they need within the boundaries of the law. But you can ask yourself: who determines the limits of the law? And do you have any influence on that? It has become a significant agenda item in our boardroom discussions. We talk about it more than ever before.’

Let us talk about the upcoming farewell. How was your departure and the succession issue discussed from the perspective of the supervisory board?
Wennink: ‘We were asked years ago already about our thoughts on this matter. The supervisory board inquired about our ideas regarding the architecture of the future board. I found that very wise. They listened attentively to our input. They also considered alternatives and discussed these with us.’

You are two purebred Dutchmen. ASML is now embarking on a more international course. There is already a Danish chairman, and a French CEO is on the way...
Van den Brink: ‘And on top of that there is a Limburger (someone from the southern Dutch province of Limburg) on the board! Speaking of, I believe Christophe (Fouquet, the incoming CEO) is from the French city of Orange. That city has traditional ties with our  royal House of Orange-Nassau. Besides, he is married to a Dutch woman.’
Wennink: ‘But seriously, I understand the remark. In fact, I am asked about it several times a week nowadays. But what we have as core values within this company are shared by our colleagues on the board. That is the soul of this company.’
Van den Brink: ‘The board selected the most suitable successor to ensure continuity. With Christophe’s 15 years of experience here, he will seamlessly carry forward the existing strategy. Naturally, he will introduce his own elements or potentially adjust the direction slightly, but he knows where we come from and where we want to go. Nationality plays a limited role.’
Wennink: ‘Furthermore, the management will soon consist of mainly Dutch people. It may not look like it from the outside, but on the inside ASML remains a very Dutch company.’

How are you going to let go of ASML?
Wennink: ‘Well, we will not be paid from April 25th onwards...’
Van den Brink: ‘We are not letting go, they are letting go of us! Ask our colleagues: how do you let go of those people?’
Wennink: ‘It is no secret: Martin is not being released. He will stay on as technology advisor. I know for sure they will call on him. Although this will certainly decrease over time. As for myself, I will never fully let go. I have been here for 30 years. I know everyone. Besides, in my role as chairman of the Eindhoven Manufacturers Association and as chairman of the university, I am still intertwined with ASML’s ecosystem. No, you never fully let go. We had our global leadership meeting this week. The warmth we felt there… Everything that comes your way... We are also being supported a bit by those people towards the next phase in our lives. We are being carried. Still. I am incredibly grateful for that.’

This interview was published in Management Scope 04 2024.